Marguerite d’Youville vs. Pandita Ramabai

In yesterday’s Biblical battle, Photini defeated Tabitha 58% to 42%, setting up an intriguing Elate Eight matchup with Martha of Bethany.

Today it’s Canadian vs. Indian as Marguerite d’Youville faces Pandita Ramabai. You’ll recall that Pandita made it this far by barely sneaking past Damien of Molokai in the closest ever Lent Madness vote, while Marguerite upset(?) Phillips Brooks.

In other Lent Madness news, we shared the incredible story of two merging California congregations who decided to name their community St. Anna’s, after last year’s Golden Halo winner Anna Alexander.

Marguerite d’Youville

This quote attributed to Marguerite, “All the wealth in the world cannot be compared with the happiness of living together happily united,” reminds us that being happily united in service to Jesus rarely reads like a comforting fairy tale and is rarely without unsettling aspects. Marguerite’s life exemplifies that. Her union with her husband was tragic on several levels, from his rampant drinking and gambling to four of six children dying in infancy. In the aftermath of the death of her husband, Marguerite, a young widow with no income and two small children, writes of hearing these words from her priest in her despair, “Console yourself, Madame, God has destined you for great works, and you will rebuild a crumbling house.”

She did rebuild the crumbling house of her life. She soon joined with two other women to form an order eventually known as The Grey Nuns. They sought to care for the sick, the poor, and the outcast – whoever needed care, companionship, and comfort. One of the vows they made was to receive, feed, and shelter as many poor as they can take care of.

But her house would crumble again with a fire that completely destroyed the sisters’ original dwelling. In the aftermath, Marguerite said to her fellow nuns, “We have until now lived a little too comfortably; henceforth, we shall have more in common with the poor by living more like them.”

Instead of rebuilding their chapter house, Marguerite, who was as ingenious and inspired as she was devout, soon rebuilt a crumbling hospital. This “Mother of the Poor,” as she was known, rebuilt the building and the hospital ministry. This rebuilding, however, was not solely due to Marguerite’s labor. We would be remiss to ignore that Marguerite was one of Montreal’s more prominent owners of enslaved people, including People of Color, Indigenous Peoples, and British prisoners. Saints are not perfect, and our telling of them should not be edited.

The hospital, too, burned to the ground some years after its founding. As Marguerite began the enormous task of rebuilding, she wrote to a friend, “My dear Father, pray that God will give me the strength to bear all these crosses and to make saintly use of them. So much at one time: to lose one’s king, one’s country, one’s possessions.” She worked tirelessly, often so exhausted from her ministry she had to be carried home via a wheelbarrow.

She and the Grey Nuns did rebuild, and their mission continues. During their early years, people in Montreal were often heard saying, “Go to the Grey Nuns; they never refuse anything.” For that part of Marguerite’s legacy, we pray that our lives, too, will be lives of service and love.

Laurie Brock

Pandita Ramabai

A life totally committed to God has nothing to fear, nothing to lose, nothing to regret. -Pandita Ramabai

Born in 1858 to a family of Hindu scholars, Pandita Ramabai was no stranger to loss. Her parents and sister died in a famine when she was a teenager, but not before her father had broken societal rules to teach her and her mother Sanskrit. She went to university with her surviving brother and because of her knowledge of the sacred texts was granted the titles Pandita (a wise person) and Sarasvati (a goddess of learning).

Perhaps due to her radical upbringing, she was committed to social reform. With her brother, she advocated for women’s education and the ability for women to be independent in society, rather than reliant upon male family members. She once took the podium to give a speech on gender reform and waited for absolute silence before speaking. She began with the words, ‘It is not strange, my countrymen, that my voice is small, for you have never given a woman the chance to make her voice strong!” Unsurprisingly, the resolution she advocated for won the vote.

After being widowed at a young age, Pandita Ramabai traveled to the UK and then America. There she raised funds for residential schools where widows could learn skills to be independent. Written at this time, her book The High Caste Hindu Woman critiqued the patriarchy of her caste, the Brahmins. It was in England that she converted from Hinduism to Christianity, for which she was harshly critiqued by the Brahmin community.

I realized after reading the fourth chapter of St. John’s Gospel, that Christ was truly the Divine Saviour he claimed to be, and no one but He could transform and uplift the downtrodden women of India…Thus my heart was drawn to the religion of Christ. -Pandita Ramabai

While abroad from India, she also studied how western educational and philanthropic institutions worked, which enabled her to start Sharada Sadan (or Home for Learning) in Mumbai in 1889. There, women received formal academic education and vocational training. In the same year, after a famine hit Mumbai, she founded Mukti Mission, which still runs to this day. For more than a hundred years women at the Mission have been taught skills they need to be self-reliant and were forbidden to learn: carpentry, tailoring, and farming to name a few. Perhaps most radically, they were also taught about their own bodies.

People must not only hear about the kingdom of GOD, but must see it in actual operation, on a small scale perhaps and in imperfect form, but a real demonstration nevertheless. -Pandita Ramabai

Feminist scholars argue that, as a woman and a Christian, Pandita Ramabai’s contributions to scholarship and society were erased from mainstream Indian history, but what cannot be erased are the effects of her vision on the lives of generations of women and girls.

Amber Belldene

Marguerite d’Youville vs. Pandita Ramabai

  • Pandita Ramabai (62%, 4,423 Votes)
  • Marguerite d’Youville (38%, 2,703 Votes)

Total Voters: 7,126

Loading ... Loading ...

Marguerite d’Youville: WikiCommons
Pandita Ramabai: WikiCommons

105 Comments to "Marguerite d’Youville vs. Pandita Ramabai"

  1. Michael Wachter's Gravatar Michael Wachter
    April 4, 2019 - 8:01 am | Permalink

    Our tribute takes us to 1891 German and the world of Spring Awakening. Please sing today’s song to the tune of the musicial’s most popular song, The Bitch of Living:

    Last round, Marguerite d’Youville
    Soundly bested Phillips Brooks,
    And then Ramabai beat Damien
    Entering the record books.
    Help me out, out of this quandry
    As we take our second looks.
    So, hey, just cast your vote, kid –
    The task you undertook.

    We have opened the email
    That was sent by Scott and Tim,
    And today it is two women,
    Thus, you cannot vote for “him.”
    Oh, the bloggers worked their magic
    Telling us of Quotes and Quirks,
    Or you could just flip a coin here.
    I say, whatever works.

    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    (Madness of Lent)
    A bracket in your hand.
    (Lent’s so mad…)
    Just the Lenten Madness
    As you pick who gets canned.

    When I think of Marge d’Youville
    and the things that she has done,
    Like that hospital she worked on
    With her band of tipsy nuns,
    You cannot discount her life’s work
    Without sounding like a schmuck.
    As a saint, I mean, God,
    She’s the first one born Canuck.

    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    (It’s mad…)
    When both saints you’d promote.
    (To promote…)
    Just the Lenten Madness:
    Don’t know how to vote.
    Does SEC want this?
    Oh, who knows?

    Of the saintly ones in India,
    Rama Dogre is the best.
    Woman “nasty” – she persisted
    Turn of Cent’ry feminist.
    Her cause went to Queen Victoria:
    Education’s meant for all.
    As a nun and a Pandita,
    Ramabai had a dual call.

    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    (It’s the Lenten Madness.)
    Not leaving this to fate.
    (This to fate…)
    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    Who moves on to Elate Eight?

    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    Seeking Gangamoola rhymes.
    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    With pained medulla times.

    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    Your bracket just went bust
    It’s the Lenten Madness.
    And knowing you’re but dust.
    Are we but dust?
    We are but dust!
    Oh, God, what a Lent!

    • Michael Wachter's Gravatar Michael Wachter
      April 4, 2019 - 8:27 am | Permalink

      What? No bracket poem? I’ll scurry
      To dash these five lines in a hurry…
      They pit Marguerite, a
      Grey Nun ‘gainst Pandita –
      And the latter, my favor didst curry.

      • Kate the Catechist's Gravatar Kate the Catechist
        April 4, 2019 - 8:36 am | Permalink

        An additional ten points to LM show tunes master Michael for his dashing limerick!

        • Michael Wachter's Gravatar Michael Wachter
          April 4, 2019 - 8:47 am | Permalink

          Ten points for Ravenclaw!

      • Verdery Kassebaum's Gravatar Verdery Kassebaum
        April 4, 2019 - 11:51 am | Permalink

        Michael Wachter–“…favor didst curry.” I saw what you did there!
        Brilliant.

      • Grace Kennedy's Gravatar Grace Kennedy
        April 4, 2019 - 12:16 pm | Permalink

        You’re on fire today, Michael! Guess that’s a spicy curry…
        Loved the “pained medulla times” bit!

    • Patrice's Gravatar Patrice
      April 4, 2019 - 8:34 am | Permalink

      Are you always this brilliant, Michael, or does the fasting of Lent enhance your creativity?
      Thank you for sharing your talent.

    • Susan Lee Hauser's Gravatar Susan Lee Hauser
      April 4, 2019 - 8:37 am | Permalink

      I LOVE “Spring Awakening.” And the “but(t) dust” joke! And “schmuck” and “Canuck”! Terrific one, Michael!

      • Michael Wachter's Gravatar Michael Wachter
        April 4, 2019 - 8:46 am | Permalink

        SUCH a good show.

    • Larry's Gravatar Larry
      April 4, 2019 - 11:21 am | Permalink

      Turns out Wachter’s lyrics work great as a rap. Try it!
      Thanks, Michael.

    • Robyn's Gravatar Robyn
      April 4, 2019 - 11:28 am | Permalink

      Just fabulous. Do you use language like this for a living???

  2. John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
    April 4, 2019 - 8:01 am | Permalink

    “I have a song to sing, oh…”

    Until now I’ve been submitting a limerick for each contest, always about my bracket pick for the day. As none of my first-round picks have made it through for today and tomorrow’s contests, in place of a limerick, I am offering a ditty you may be familiar with from Gilbert and Sullivan’s “The Mikado”:

    As by happenstance it turns out my next bracket picks are toast
    I’ve got a little list — I’ve got a little list
    For today and for tomorrow there’s some folks I’d like to roast
    And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!
    There’s the pestilential Piskys who cast votes for dogs and cats
    Or potentially a dragon that is more or less ersatz
    There’s the people who create a one-time avatar to post
    They say their say, then steal away as silent as a ghost.
    Proponents pushing pronouns that did not before exist
    They’d none of ’em be missed — they’d none of ’em be missed!

    [Chorus]
    He’s got ’em on the list — he’s got ’em on the list;
    And they’ll none of ’em be missed — they’ll none of ’em be missed

    First Mary lost to Martha: now she’s sweeping out the hall
    The abolitionist then Agatha dismissed
    Next Tikhon challenged Loyola to win or lose it all
    But he could not resist that fierce antagonist
    As Marg’ret of Cortona from her bracket disappeared
    And James the Greater moments later faced what he had feared
    Then Hannah fell to Allen; we heard her supporters’ howls
    Marina humbled Dominic in the Contest of the Cowls
    Though legions of the faithful still their worthiness insist
    Their Lenten shot they missed — from Madness they’re dismissed.

    [Chorus]
    He put them on his list — he’s got ’em on the list;
    Thus far one of them he missed — a single one he missed.

    (part 2 tomorrow…)

    • Carolyn Mack's Gravatar Carolyn Mack
      April 4, 2019 - 8:15 am | Permalink

      Interesting, since today’s match could be two “ladies from the provinces” (Montreal and India), although I am a little uncomfortable with the Lord High executioners song discussing saints. Love both today, but since my calling is education, I went with Pandita.

      • Carolyn Mack's Gravatar Carolyn Mack
        April 4, 2019 - 8:17 am | Permalink

        Oops! Executioner’s.

    • Manny's Gravatar Manny
      April 4, 2019 - 8:26 am | Permalink

      You go, John!

    • Mary Katherine's Gravatar Mary Katherine
      April 4, 2019 - 8:28 am | Permalink

      FABULOUS! I didn’t think your limericks could be improved upon – then this!!!!

    • Michelle C's Gravatar Michelle C
      April 4, 2019 - 8:29 am | Permalink

      Love it, John Cabot! Which song from the Mikado?

      • Kate the Catechist's Gravatar Kate the Catechist
        April 4, 2019 - 8:44 am | Permalink

        It is the one sung by the Lord High Executioner, a patter song best known as “I’ve Got A Little List” which starts out, “As someday it may happen that a victim must be found…” and goes from there. John nailed this one! 🙂

    • Sue Goodman's Gravatar Sue Goodman
      April 4, 2019 - 9:45 am | Permalink

      Excellent! Brilliant little list!

    • Robyn's Gravatar Robyn
      April 4, 2019 - 11:29 am | Permalink

      Bravo!

    • Verdery Kassebaum's Gravatar Verdery Kassebaum
      April 4, 2019 - 11:56 am | Permalink

      Brilliant, Michael. Just brilliant! I’m looking forward to tomorrow’s contribution.
      (Anything from “Pinafore? I played Buttercup longer ago than I care to admit.)

    • Sunderland Em's Gravatar Sunderland Em
      April 4, 2019 - 12:47 pm | Permalink

      Spectacular, John! Since the list is often updated topically in contemporary productions of The Mikado, I ‘d like to think that G&S would be very pleased with John’s work on today’s bracket match. Not current politics, as is the usual take, but a delightful summary of recent LM history.
      Love your limericks, but this pestilential Piskey can’t wait for Part 2 tomorrow.

    • Amy's Gravatar Amy
      April 4, 2019 - 12:58 pm | Permalink

      LOL

    • Susan Lee Hauser's Gravatar Susan Lee Hauser
      April 4, 2019 - 1:03 pm | Permalink

      Your rhymes are wonderful, and it’s a great parody of the song, but I’m troubled by roasting folks on this platform. Those dogs and cats and pronouns are really, really important to some on this journey with us. They “wouldn’t be missed”?

      • John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
        April 4, 2019 - 2:42 pm | Permalink

        Of course they would be missed. Lent Madness is a marvelous curry (thanks, Michael) of viewpoints, with an occasional burst of pepper. My intent is to spend these two “lay days” (courtesy of my shot-torn bracket) recapping our Lenten voyage together so far in a spirit of fun.

        In respect for Gilbert and as an aide-mémoire to those less familiar with his œuvre, in stanza 1 I retained the satirical form as well as the original final line and chorus. I had already altered them for stanzas 2-4 (as you will see tomorrow), since I did not want to imply that these saints (however flawed) “would not be missed”. In fact, at the moment I miss some of them dearly 🙁

        With malice toward none, and charity for all,

        — John

        • Susan Lee Hauser's Gravatar Susan Lee Hauser
          April 4, 2019 - 3:07 pm | Permalink

          Thanks, John. I appreciate your responding. I thought you were saying that the LM voters wouldn’t be missed. My mistake.

          • John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
            April 4, 2019 - 3:48 pm | Permalink

            Susan, there are doubtless some LM voters I wouldn’t miss (viz. shot-torn bracket). However, I will definitely miss this wild ‘n wooly crew of commenters.

        • Davis Dassori's Gravatar Davis Dassori
          April 4, 2019 - 3:30 pm | Permalink

          Having played Koko in a (believe it or not) parish production of “The Mikado,” I loved for once being able to sing along to a tune I knew. And, John, I find your contributions a daily delight.

          That said (OK, here it comes), I found the one about the pronouns a little hard to get by. I’m a grammar freak among my less attractive traits, and the use of “they are” in place of “he/she is” grates horribly on my ears; but there IS a problem in need of a solution here. Whether that will be the eventual outcome remains to be seen, but in the meantime we need to tolerate sincere attempts to resolve it. I take comfort that “you” was once plural and accusative to boot, which would make “you are” in the singular equivalent to “them is,” and it likely sounded awful to conservative speakers of the time.

          We may end the Turks their single third-person singular pronoun, but our language is English and we’re stuck with it in all its glory.

          • John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
            April 4, 2019 - 4:10 pm | Permalink

            Davis, no question our society is going through a tremendous reimagining of the concept of “gender”, and of the words that relate to it. That’s OK, the English language should not a constant. Marry, I trow I knowst not how to do’t.

            God help the French…

    • Pamela Payne's Gravatar Pamela Payne
      April 4, 2019 - 1:57 pm | Permalink

      Love The Mikado and love your lyrics. Limericks and Lyrics….you and Michael make Lent Madness even madder! (In a good way, of course!). And my bracket has not done do well this year either…today is a coin toss!

    • Jackie B.'s Gravatar Jackie B.
      April 4, 2019 - 5:56 pm | Permalink

      Love it! I finally know a tune!

  3. etupper's Gravatar etupper
    April 4, 2019 - 8:20 am | Permalink

    Is this a “patter” song or a “pater” song? Brilliant. I voted for the ersatz dragon too. Keep them coming, John, be ye not of faint heart!

  4. Miss Jan's Gravatar Miss Jan
    April 4, 2019 - 8:22 am | Permalink

    Why wasn’t Marguerite’s slave owning mentioned in the first round biography?

    I cannot vote for a slave owner, & definitely not over a woman who worked to liberate other women.

    #VotePanditaRamabai

    • April 4, 2019 - 9:05 am | Permalink

      To be fair, Miss Jan, her slave-owning did come up and prompted lively discussion in the comments, but as I see you’re an early voter, you could easily have missed that.

      Personally, I agree with you. #VotePanditaRamabai

      • Frank Hubbard's Gravatar Frank Hubbard
        April 4, 2019 - 1:07 pm | Permalink

        Pandita for sure. A liberator. I had not heard her story before LM, and the quote is very pertinent to church life.

    • Laurie's Gravatar Laurie
      April 4, 2019 - 9:56 am | Permalink

      Truly shocked that there are any votes for a slave owner, or that a slave owner was even included in Lent Madness.

      • Gail's Gravatar Gail
        April 4, 2019 - 12:21 pm | Permalink

        Considering that Christianity began at a time when slave-owning was common, you might find yourself writing off numerous early Christians. Judge a person in the context of his time.

        • Robert's Gravatar Robert
          April 4, 2019 - 5:17 pm | Permalink

          Exactly. As abhorrent as i find slavery, one should consider the norms and standards of the time in which a person lived. To apply modern thoughts and standards to the past isn’t fair to them, just as i hope future generations won’t condemn a good person today because standards have changed.

          • Laurie's Gravatar Laurie
            April 5, 2019 - 9:35 am | Permalink

            Sorry, no. This isn’t a slave in Jesus’s time. She lived in the 1700s – as did many of our forefathers who now aren’t given a pass for owning slaves. I can absolutely apply judgment to someone who owned another human, and in this instance I did it by voting for Pandita. The “he/she was from a different time” argument is a slippery slope and can be used to rationalize all sorts of sins, both then and now.

      • Tessa Lucero's Gravatar Tessa Lucero
        April 4, 2019 - 1:59 pm | Permalink

        Slave ownership is common in both the Old and New Testaments. A number of Jesus’s parables include slavery as a part of the narrative, he and his listeners took slavery for granted as an established institution. And looking at this year’s bracket I would venture to guess that there are other slave owners. Nicodemus the Pharisee, for instance, almost certainly owned slaves. I would not be surprised to learn that Mary and Martha of Bethany were slaveowners — even though Martha was doing some of the hard work of hosting guests. Paula of Rome’s biography mentions that in her youth Paula was carried around the city by a cluster of eunuch slaves. I don’t think we can judge people who lived thousands of years ago by our standards of today.

        • Shelly's Gravatar Shelly
          April 4, 2019 - 3:19 pm | Permalink

          I was wondering how many others in the bracket were also slave owners. Judging people by today’s standards vs. those of their time is something I struggle with.

      • Davis Dassori's Gravatar Davis Dassori
        April 4, 2019 - 2:59 pm | Permalink

        I truly don’t see how you can be “shocked.” If such things shock you, you must be in a constant state of shock from every direction. And I find it borderline offensive that you would find a single vote for Marguerite, such as the one I may cast, so incomprehensible as to be shocking. So brace yourself . . . .

        • Davis Dassori's Gravatar Davis Dassori
          April 4, 2019 - 3:11 pm | Permalink

          OK, dear sister in Christ, you can relax — I’m going with Pandita.

          • Laurie's Gravatar Laurie
            April 5, 2019 - 9:37 am | Permalink

            I’ll admit: many things do shock me these days. I find it very hard to observe certain people’s behavior nowadays. Don’t worry though; I’ll survive. And respond with my vote, both in Lent Madness and 2020.

      • Robert's Gravatar Robert
        April 4, 2019 - 5:18 pm | Permalink

        Exactly. As abhorrent as i find slavery, one should consider the norms and standards of the time in which a person lived. To apply modern thoughts and standards to the past isn’t fair to them, just as i hope future generations won’t condemn a good person today because standards have changed.

    • Kathleen's Gravatar Kathleen
      April 4, 2019 - 4:03 pm | Permalink

      In that vein–and I’m sorry if this is a bit off topic, but it’s bothering me–I hope John Chrysostom’s anti-Semitism is mentioned in the next round. Both it and its long-term consequences were appalling and not worthy of this competition–and they didn’t come up in either writeup. I don’t care how influential his golden tongue was–it was also a poison tongue, and I really don’t want to see him advance any further.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversus_Judaeos#Chrysostom's_homilies_and_Nazism

      • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
        April 4, 2019 - 6:06 pm | Permalink

        Many people commented on John’s anti-semitism. And Luther last year was roundly excoriated for anti-semitism.

        • Laurie's Gravatar Laurie
          April 5, 2019 - 9:39 am | Permalink

          And that’s as it should be. If we can’t exclude saints from Lent Madness for their unfortunate behavior/thoughts, then at the very least we should expose them. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, etc.

    • Samantha's Gravatar Samantha
      April 4, 2019 - 4:48 pm | Permalink

      As far as I know, the only evidence we have that she was a slave owner is her husband’s will. I don’t know what she did with the slave when she inherited her.

  5. Michael Wachter's Gravatar Michael Wachter
    April 4, 2019 - 8:26 am | Permalink

    What? No bracket poem? I’ll scurry
    To dash these five lines in a hurry…
    They pit Marguerite, a
    Grey Nun ‘gainst Pandita –
    And the latter, my favor didst curry.

    • John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
      April 4, 2019 - 8:35 am | Permalink

      Well-wrought! Welcome to Topsy-turvy land.

    • Susan Lee Hauser's Gravatar Susan Lee Hauser
      April 4, 2019 - 8:39 am | Permalink

      Game on!

  6. Shannon's Gravatar Shannon
    April 4, 2019 - 8:30 am | Permalink

    Most difficult choice this year! How can I vote for both?

  7. Michelle C's Gravatar Michelle C
    April 4, 2019 - 8:38 am | Permalink

    Pandita for me, today. I find it inspirational that she worked so hard to change her society’s rules and expectations. I love that her schools were designed to teach women skills to be independent. To me this exemplifies the adage “give a man a fish and he’ll eat today, teach a man to fish and he’ll never go hungry”.

    I also love the quote in today’s blog “People must not only hear about the kingdom of GOD, but must see it in actual operation, on a small scale perhaps and in imperfect form, but a real demonstration nevertheless.”

  8. Diana's Gravatar Diana
    April 4, 2019 - 8:58 am | Permalink

    Pandita was faithful before she knew Christ;
    A valorous one, Spirit-caught.
    She knew being female
    Did not make her mind frail.
    For women, God’s daughters, she fought.

    • Susan Lee Hauser's Gravatar Susan Lee Hauser
      April 4, 2019 - 12:34 pm | Permalink

      Nice one, Diana!

  9. Karen Eshelman's Gravatar Karen Eshelman
    April 4, 2019 - 9:05 am | Permalink

    Amongst the many reasons I am voting for the scholar Pandita Ramabai, this particularly caught my attention:
    “She translated the Bible into Marathi, the language of her birth, spoken in Western India.”

  10. St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
    April 4, 2019 - 9:23 am | Permalink

    I voted for Pandita. I was glad to have the opportunity to vote for a goddess. Marguerite and the Grey Nuns remind me very much of Nonnatus House in “Call the Midwife.” Nevertheless, I feel that efforts to raise up women around the globe are deserving of special notice.

  11. Mary O'Donnell's Gravatar Mary O'Donnell
    April 4, 2019 - 9:34 am | Permalink

    A hard choice. My sisters name is Marguerite so I went with her.

  12. Nancy's Gravatar Nancy
    April 4, 2019 - 9:41 am | Permalink

    Pandita Ramabai has our vote today, as in the earlier round.

  13. Laurie's Gravatar Laurie
    April 4, 2019 - 9:57 am | Permalink

    Truly shocked that there are any votes for a slave owner, or that a slave owner was even included in Lent Madness.

    • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
      April 4, 2019 - 10:13 am | Permalink

      Mary’s Magnificat refers to being the “handmaid of the lord.” The word she uses is “doula,” slave. While chattel slavery may have been the original sin of north america, along with exploitation and extermination of the indigenous peoples, I am afraid that if we fetishize the term “slave” and fixate on that to the exclusion of all else, we will lose sight of other issues requiring our spiritual attention. We have enslaved the earth, and not one of us is free of that legacy. Some ability to move between metaphor and brute fact will be necessary if we are to survive as a species at all.

      • Donice Gilliland's Gravatar Donice Gilliland
        April 4, 2019 - 10:38 am | Permalink

        Beautifully stated.

      • Elizabeth's Gravatar Elizabeth
        April 5, 2019 - 7:19 pm | Permalink

        Interesting to me that the people who care for women in labor and in the early post-partum period are also called “doulas.” In this instance, the allusion is beautiful

        It is also quite a different thing to willingly declare oneself to belong to God, entirely subject to God’s will, than to be given as a tool or piece of property to another human being, without choice or recourse.

  14. Sue's Gravatar Sue
    April 4, 2019 - 9:58 am | Permalink

    The Supreme Executive Committee is very very cruel making us choose between Tabitha and Photini and now Marguerite and Pandita. All so worthy! I chose Marguerite only because I grew up next to Canada so it’s near and dear to my heart.

  15. Kim's Gravatar Kim
    April 4, 2019 - 10:11 am | Permalink

    “During their early years, people in Montreal were often heard saying, “Go to the Grey Nuns; they never refuse anything.”” Our celebrity blogger’s words brought to mind Judy Collins singing Leonard Cohen’s “Sisters of Mercy.” Thus an impulsive vote for Marguerite.

  16. Mary Jane C. Ingalls's Gravatar Mary Jane C. Ingalls
    April 4, 2019 - 10:23 am | Permalink

    Good morning! The detail of Marguerite’s less than perfect use of enslaved people addresses the frequent dilemma of holding historical persons to current standards which, personally, I believe is a mistake. “Progress not perfection”, and “work in progress” is a concept that embraces our ability to change and grow.

    This day, however, I would prefer to embrace the change and the growth by voting for Pandita. The contribution, importance, and sacrifice of women have for too long been discounted, erased, and subjugated.

  17. Elaine Hood Culver's Gravatar Elaine Hood Culver
    April 4, 2019 - 10:35 am | Permalink

    Another coin toss of a day. I voted for Marguerite because of the death and resurrection course of her life. You just can’t keep a good woman down!
    All honor to Pandita for reminding us that the Kingdom of God is something to be lived out.

  18. Miss Jan's Gravatar Miss Jan
    April 4, 2019 - 10:38 am | Permalink

    Marguerite d’Youville would be an interesting match up against William Wilberforce. The ratio would be amazing.

    • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
      April 4, 2019 - 10:46 am | Permalink

      Alas, Rudolph got Ratioed. We will not see that like again for awhile.

  19. Tobu's Gravatar Tobu
    April 4, 2019 - 10:41 am | Permalink

    For her fiery speeches and bold feminist ideals, still relevant today, as she worked from within her own culture to effect change, my vote goes to Pandita Ramabai. She didn’t sugar-coat her messages, and yet even a queen sat up and took notice when she spoke!

  20. Michele's Gravatar Michele
    April 4, 2019 - 10:42 am | Permalink

    Seems to me that after everything burns down twice it might be a message from the universe that you’re going about things the wrong way. Oh yeah, but you can get the slaves to rebuild.

    • Susan Lee Hauser's Gravatar Susan Lee Hauser
      April 4, 2019 - 12:39 pm | Permalink

      I had the opposite reaction. I thought, How much determination, strength, and faith it would take to do the whole thing over again! I don’t know that I would have it in me. Nevertheless, I voted for Pandita! How awesome would it be for someone from India to get the Golden Halo!

    • Tessa Lucero's Gravatar Tessa Lucero
      April 4, 2019 - 6:54 pm | Permalink

      “When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built it all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp. So I built a second one. And that one sank into the swamp. So I built a third. That burned down, fell over, and then sank into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up.”
      –Monty Python and the Holy Grail

      • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
        April 4, 2019 - 9:38 pm | Permalink

        ‘e isn’t the Messiah. ‘e’s a very naughty boy.

  21. Kathy in Nicaragua's Gravatar Kathy in Nicaragua
    April 4, 2019 - 10:49 am | Permalink

    Since I voted for her in the first round, and voted for Damien as well, I voted for Marguerite today. But this is one of those days when both saints are equally worthy of advancing, in my opinion. By the way, at the beginning of the Saintly 16 round I predicted Martha vs Ramabai for the Golden Halo.

  22. Emily's Gravatar Emily
    April 4, 2019 - 11:23 am | Permalink

    It is not a hard choice to voice for Pandita. And despite her wonderful works, it was not a hard choice to walk away from Marguerite. In today’s world, I cannot celebrate a slave owner.

    • Annie's Gravatar Annie
      April 4, 2019 - 4:06 pm | Permalink

      I am having a difficult time understanding the statement that St. Marguerite was a slave owner. It does not explain the circumstance around the statement. For a poor woman who had nothing, how can this be? Were these people a property of the hospital or her husband? She gave so much to the lowly and poor, could it be that she was offering shelter? We just don’t know. There are African Americans that “owned” slaves. They were their own family members, because it may have been the only way to keep their families safe and together. Yet you would denounce them as a slave owner? I’m not in any way supporting slavery, I would like to have more information before jumping to any conclusions.

  23. Andrea's Gravatar Andrea
    April 4, 2019 - 11:46 am | Permalink

    I love that Pandita Ramabai was converted by reading the story of Photini.

  24. Rachel R.'s Gravatar Rachel R.
    April 4, 2019 - 12:09 pm | Permalink

    I can’t, in good conscience, vote for a slave owner, despite all the good work she did. How did Marguerite even get into Lent Madness??

    • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
      April 4, 2019 - 12:49 pm | Permalink

      “the good work she did”

  25. John Miller's Gravatar John Miller
    April 4, 2019 - 12:18 pm | Permalink

    Marguerite kept coming back from adversity. In my adversities (pales in comparison to Marguerite’s) I find strength in her story.

  26. The Rev. Missy Couch's Gravatar The Rev. Missy Couch
    April 4, 2019 - 12:45 pm | Permalink

    I was wondering if there is any relationship between who gets listed first on the daily Lent Madness voting ballot and who wins that day?
    Enjoying this year’s contest.

    • John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
      April 4, 2019 - 2:01 pm | Permalink

      Round of 32: 6 first-comers out of 16 won their rounds (37.5%).
      Saintly 16: 4 out of 5 first-comers (so far) have won their rounds (80%). If Ramabai holds onto today’s lead, that would be 66%: close to the converse of 37.5%.

      I don’t see a relationship based on this (admittedly small) sample. Anyone here want to look back over the last ten years’ data to test this hypothesis?

  27. Barbara MacRobie's Gravatar Barbara MacRobie
    April 4, 2019 - 12:58 pm | Permalink

    We all have our litmus tests for saints, the behavior that although acceptable to some people in the context of the saint’s own times make them unusable role models for ourselves. Anti-Semitism did in Martin Luther last year. Marguerite d’Youville is getting X’d out for owning slaves. William Wilberforce got dinged for being politically conservative.

    For me, it’s a matter of degree, how controversial in its own time the behavior was, and the behavior’s lasting effects. If people in the saint’s own time and society were saying, “That’s not okay,” the saint had an option.

    • Tessa Lucero's Gravatar Tessa Lucero
      April 4, 2019 - 2:05 pm | Permalink

      Very good point. John Chrysostom is also being judged by today’s standards, though his behavior was not controversial in his time.
      However, the lasting effects of the writings and the behavior do need to be considered. Paul’s harsh words about women and what we now call the LBGTQ+ community have caused untold guilt and grief over the years.

    • Elizabeth's Gravatar Elizabeth
      April 4, 2019 - 2:08 pm | Permalink

      I agree with your analysis, but I have been wondering why his anti-Jewish/Judaizer writings have not done in John Chrysostom so far? Their misuse in the 2oth Century alone (by the Nazi regime) was deadly.

      http://web.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/John_Chrysostom

      • Barbara MacRobie's Gravatar Barbara MacRobie
        April 4, 2019 - 2:40 pm | Permalink

        I’m totally anti-Chrysostom, and that’s why I say “matter of degree.” He went on and on for eight sermons – eight that we know of! – with absolutely viciousness. Inspired by Lent Madness, I read large chunks of them for myself, and I am appalled. I can’t believe he’s gotten as far as he has in this year’s Madness.

      • John Cabot's Gravatar John Cabot
        April 4, 2019 - 3:37 pm | Permalink

        One reason for John Chrysostom’s advance so far is that his homilies on Jews (or alternatively “Judaizing Christians”) and on homosexuality are nowhere mentioned in the posts so far by his Celebrity Blogger David Creech. Instead, their existence (and tragic legacy) have appeared only in subsequent comments — which are not read by the majority of LM voters.

        Today’s contest further supports this hypothesis. In the first round, Marguerite’s Celebrity Blogger (Laurie Brock) did not refer to Marguerite’s forcible employment of slaves, ex-prostitutes, and POWs, and Marguerite handily won against Phillips Brooks. To her credit, Rev. Brock has rectified that omission in today’s post, and it appears that Marguerite’s luster has substantially dimmed as a result.

        I respectfully urge the SEC and Dr. Creech to reflect on Rev. Brock’s words today: “Saints are not perfect, and our telling of them should not be edited.”

  28. Chris's Gravatar Chris
    April 4, 2019 - 1:57 pm | Permalink

    I have been waiting on this match since the (in)famous Damien match-up (#DamienForever!). After re-reading the bios I think I will go with Marguerite. She took adversity as a sign that she was too affluent and really gave what she could to her cause(s). She openned her heart, her wealth, her status, and more to the lowliest around her. Plus she gave up all while her world crumbled around her (she wasn’t being dramatic when she said she lost her king, country, and possessions; she wrote that in the aftermath of the French and Indian War and Britain taking her French Canada). The bios haven’t said so but I bet she provided an important source of stability for her fellow French-Canadians at such a traumatic time…

  29. Fiona's Gravatar Fiona
    April 4, 2019 - 3:07 pm | Permalink

    I voted for Photini yesterday and today I vote for Pandita who found faith through her story. What a remarkable, courageous woman.

  30. Davis Dassori's Gravatar Davis Dassori
    April 4, 2019 - 3:08 pm | Permalink

    But in the end, Pandita my favor hath curried and, without reference to the issue of slavery, will get my vote. At the same time I must say that there has to be a better approach to sLavery than relentlessly disqualifying every participant in the institution and setting such a treasure of good and, yes, exemplary works at naught.

  31. Mary Beth's Gravatar Mary Beth
    April 4, 2019 - 3:12 pm | Permalink

    I found today’s choice difficult, but, as always, the comments from the community are challenging, inspiring, and witty – I chose Pandita because, as others have noted she was a believer before she was a Christian –

  32. Theresa Todd's Gravatar Theresa Todd
    April 4, 2019 - 4:19 pm | Permalink

    Yesterday’s vote ended in a quandary for our church – a dead heat that refused to be broken. In case you run into this, here’s a workable solution. Ask a dog to break the tie. All you have to do is get the dog to sit, place two treats on either side of her paws, repeat the name of the saint represented by each treat, then let the dog choose one treat or the other. Of course, you want to be scientifically rigorous, so repeating the exercise twice more clearly validates the results. We’d have done a double blind trial, but that would just be the blind leading the blind. Just to be clear, no dog was harmed in this study, and the dog got to eat the rest of the treats!

    • Waynecarlos's Gravatar Waynecarlos
      April 4, 2019 - 5:20 pm | Permalink

      58% to 42% is not a “dead heat”.

    • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
      April 4, 2019 - 6:10 pm | Permalink

      We must refer these difficult matters to St. Guinefort. Guinefort’s always been a real dog of a saint. When the rest of us give pause, Guinefort will give paws. No bones about it, Guinefort’s your canonical canine.

  33. Miss Jan's Gravatar Miss Jan
    April 4, 2019 - 4:35 pm | Permalink

    A slave-owner is one of the contestants in Lent Madness today, but it is a descendent of slaves that is remembered throughout The Episcopal Church today.

    Almighty God, who by the hand of Moses Thy servant didst lead Thy people out of slavery, and didst make them free at last: Grant that Thy Church, following the example of Thy prophet Martin Luther King, may resist oppression in the name of Thy love, and may strive to secure for all Thy children the blessed liberty of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; who liveth and reignth with Thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever.
    Amen.

  34. Elaine Chilcote's Gravatar Elaine Chilcote
    April 4, 2019 - 6:52 pm | Permalink

    Having lived in Nepal for several years, I know how much criticism Pandita must have received for her conversion to Christianity. I was struck by her words, “A life totally committed to God has nothing to fear, nothing to lose, nothing to regret.” I was happy to vote for her.

  35. Judy Bye's Gravatar Judy Bye
    April 4, 2019 - 7:01 pm | Permalink

    It looks like Pandita will go up against Wilberforce and lose. Wilberforce vs Santa, oh no. That winner against Martha, Photini or Ignatius. Santa probably has a strong base with all those churches with their voting, non-commenting kids. Are Santa’s elves slaves? Does he promote Free Trade? Provide health insurance? A 401K? On site day care for his employees kids? Are his products made in the USA? I don’t think this match matters. Whenever the opportunity is there, vote for Wilberforce or against Santa.

    • St Celia's Gravatar St Celia
      April 4, 2019 - 9:43 pm | Permalink

      You make excellent points about Santa’s elves. Are the elves unionized? What happens to aging reindeer? No one has ever told how Santa sourced his glue. And since the unfortunate Rudolph incident, has Santa implemented an anti-bullying policy? This will make the kitsch round grim indeed.

    • Miss Jan's Gravatar Miss Jan
      April 4, 2019 - 10:54 pm | Permalink

      Santa’s workshop is in Canada, so everyone has national health insurance. I suspect anything made in his workshop is “Made in Canada” where the postal code for the North Pole is H0H 0H0.

  36. Shannon's Gravatar Shannon
    April 4, 2019 - 10:05 pm | Permalink

    I was all set to vote for my fellow Canadian, Marguerite, as I grew up with a Grey Nuns convent nearby that I always rode my bike past. At one point, I even wanted to become a nun, and the Grey Nuns ( “Les Soeurs Grises”) were high on my list.

    In today’s reading, however, we learn that Marguerite was the owner of slaves, and that is hard to reconcile, despite the times. I am surprised that this was not mentioned in the first introduction to her. My vote is for Pandita, who bravely converted to Christianity and stood up for women’s rights.

  37. Anne Lane's Gravatar Anne Lane
    April 4, 2019 - 10:15 pm | Permalink

    I am applying Pandita Ramabai’s quote to Marguerite and voting for imperfect Marguerite. “People must not only hear about the kingdom of GOD, but must see it in actual operation, on a small scale perhaps and in imperfect form, but a real demonstration nevertheless.” -Pandita Ramabai

  38. andrea's Gravatar andrea
    April 4, 2019 - 10:52 pm | Permalink

    Pandita. “For more than a hundred years women at the Mission have been taught skills they need to be self-reliant and were forbidden to learn: carpentry, tailoring, and farming to name a few. Perhaps most radically, they were also taught about their own bodies.”

    • Elizabeth's Gravatar Elizabeth
      April 5, 2019 - 7:09 pm | Permalink

      Both saints did a prodigious amount of good in the world. Leaving aside any possible demons in their respective closets (Please, please, no one come up with unsavory dirt about Pandita), it’s a difference between giving the needy fish or fishing poles. What you are able to give depends on the time, place, your resources, and many other factors, and neither action is less holy. However, yesterday, I was meditating on the great need for crafters of poles and for fishing instructors in our world, so I went with Pandita. I am hoping my French-Canadian grandparents, who struggled with poverty in their day, look down from the heavens and approve of my choice.

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